tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28837843.post2111820138474426337..comments2024-03-19T07:10:27.303-07:00Comments on Quark Soup by David Appell: McDonald's is Lobbying Government to Crackdown on Sales of Fruits and VegetablesDavid Appellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03318269033139447591noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28837843.post-44629041807975308832016-02-24T17:05:01.448-08:002016-02-24T17:05:01.448-08:00For example, I pay $22/month to have my garbage an...For example, I pay $22/month to have my garbage and recycling hauled away.<br /><br />If instead I dumped it in an empty lot down the street, I'm $22/month richer.<br /><br />Eventually someone will have to clean that up, costing them time and money. They're poorer.<br /><br />It's a form of socialism.David Appellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03318269033139447591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28837843.post-63930307629257196282016-02-24T16:48:06.434-08:002016-02-24T16:48:06.434-08:00William, I do consider negative externalities to b...William, I do consider negative externalities to be a subsidy -- someone has to pay for them, and it's not the ones who created them. Their producer keeps the profits and socializes the cost.<br /><br />So, to me, direct subsidies that avoid negative externalities have a definite value attached to them. <br /><br />So I see the Koch brothers talking out of both sides of their mouth.<br /><br />Granted, adding up the negative externalities is difficult. How do they compare to a product's value, like the Chinese solar panels you mentioned? There was a study that tried to quantify this, at least for the US, for power production by coal, oil and natural gas:<br /><br />"Environmental Accounting for Pollution in the United States Economy," Nicholas Z. Muller, Robert Mendelsohn, and William Nordhaus, American Economic Review, 101(5): 1649–75 (2011).<br />http://www.aeaweb.org/articles.php?doi=10.1257/aer.101.5.1649<br /><br />Summarizing that paper's findings: for every $1 in value that comes from coal-generated electricity, it creates $2.20 in damages. <br /><br />Total damages: $70 billion per year (in 2012 dollars).<br /><br />Petroleum-generated electricity is even worse: $5.13 in damages for $1 in value.<br /><br />So coal actually does more harm than good. It sends the economy backwards. <br />David Appellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03318269033139447591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28837843.post-86067564473051546642016-02-23T09:09:46.309-08:002016-02-23T09:09:46.309-08:00In one respect, direct subsidies are worse than in...In one respect, direct subsidies are worse than indirect subsidies. When the government has the power to give something of great value to one organization but not to another, corruption comes about.<br /><br />CheersDavid in Calhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10222355423128534221noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28837843.post-83354466275450063862016-02-23T00:47:07.750-08:002016-02-23T00:47:07.750-08:00I'm not very comfortable calling "negativ...I'm not very comfortable calling "negative externalities" subsidies. Especially if you're inconsistent about it; are you counting the cost of all that coal burnt to produce Chinese solar panels against those solar panels?<br /><br />> Subsidies for electric vehicles and solar power are worth it<br /><br />OK, that's a fair point, and you're entitled to it, and I'd be sympathetic. But "there should be no subsidies at all" is also a fair point; you prefer yours, obviously, but you can't just dismiss someone else's because it disagrees with you.<br /><br />> rotten about opposing a cleaner world and new technologies just because<br /><br />But you don't know that its for personal gain. It might be; or they might indeed have a consistent and principled objection to government subsidy. So far you haven't provided any evidence against the latter; probably because to you it isn't necessary; the former is far too "obvious" to be questioned.William M. Connolleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05836299130680534926noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28837843.post-303691569885939002016-02-22T17:00:31.785-08:002016-02-22T17:00:31.785-08:00William: My complaint is that the Kochs are all in...William: My complaint is that the Kochs are all in favor of their own subsidies -- both direct and indirect, such as (For the latter) the huge negative externalities of their products being paid for by the public, not them. <br /><br />Subsidies for electric vehicles and solar power are worth it to the extent they avoid pollution and thus the damage costs of that pollution. (Though I will concede they have a point that users of rooftop solar need to pay something for the grid they sell excess energy to and rely on for supplemental power.)<br /><br />And I think there's something extremely rotten about opposing a cleaner world and new technologies just because they personally might not make them another hundred billion dollars. David Appellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03318269033139447591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28837843.post-5470763229860249212016-02-20T16:47:00.805-08:002016-02-20T16:47:00.805-08:00Partisan media sometimes present distorted or inco...Partisan media sometimes present distorted or incomplete versions of news -- tilted to prove their chosen narrative. Their reports should be checked. <i>Rolling Stone</i> merits a lot of checking after their scandalously false report on the supposed rape at a fraternity house at the University of Virginia.<br /><br />cheersDavid in Calhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10222355423128534221noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28837843.post-41772699513179254382016-02-20T09:14:33.154-08:002016-02-20T09:14:33.154-08:00I don't really understand your complaint here....I don't really understand your complaint here. The Koch's are consistently arguing against subsidies. See-also Timmy: http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/02/20/charles-koch-and-bernie-sanders-agree-theres-too-much-inequality/. The HuffPo's "Multimillion-Dollar Assault On Electric Vehicles" isn't even attempting to be fair, honest or unbiased; and in the end it's the Koch's arguing against subsidies. The RS piece is so outraged, they don't bother to explain exactly what it is they are so outraged about. I kept reading and reading and eventually gave up - they just don't appear to explain what the actual problem is, because they waste so many words telling us that A Really bad Thing is happening. That's rubbish journalism.William M. Connolleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05836299130680534926noreply@blogger.com