Huffington Post's logic is a copy of Donald Trump's. Trump says some immigrants are criminals, so all immigrants are bad. Huffington says six immigrants won Nobel Prizes, so all immigrants are good.
No, the Huffington Post's argument is quite different logically.
It is this, more or less: Winners of Nobel Prizes are good. This year's winners are all immigrants. Therefore there are some immigrants who are good, This contradicts the assertion that all immigrants are bad.
Huffington Post doesn't state an argument. They don't provide their opinion of the significance of the 6 immigrant Nobel Prize winners. That's a rhetorical trick, inviting the reader to interpret it for him/herself.
OnymousGuy's interpretation looks plausible to me. But, it's based on a falsehood. Trump has NOT said all immigrants are bad. He has criticized two types of immigrants: Muslims and illegal immigrants from Latin America. AFAIK none of the 6 American Nobel Prized winners belongs to either of these groups.
Trump is such an awful candidate, you'd think Huffington Post could criticize him based on facts, rather than an exaggerated caricature of his actual views.
David in Cal said... "Huffington Post doesn't state an argument. They don't provide their opinion of the significance of the 6 immigrant Nobel Prize winners. That's a rhetorical trick, inviting the reader to interpret it for him/herself."
Do you really honestly need help interpretating the work of Nobel Laureates in the sciences?
"Huffington says six immigrants won Nobel Prizes, so all immigrants are good."
Can you please quote that line from the HP? I must have missed it.
DiC says: Trump has NOT said all immigrants are bad. He has criticized two types of immigrants: Muslims and illegal immigrants from Latin America.
"When Mexico sends their people they're not sending their best. They're sending people who have lots of problems. They're bringing those problems with us (sic). They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people"
Nothing about illegal immigrants there. And it's not just Mexicans:
"But you have people coming in, and I'm not just saying Mexicans. I'm talking about people from all over that are killers and rapists and they're coming into this country."
Not just immigrants though. Skin colour matters too:
"Sadly, the overwhelming amount of violent crime in our major cities is committed by blacks and hispanics."
The Huffington Post has a good point. With Hitler on the rise, Einstein and his family fled their native Germany and emigrated to America. Lucky for us. Not so good for the Nazis. Here are six more examples of why America is great.
You have a point Layzej. However, Trump speaks off the cuff, and imprecisely, so he doesn't always say exactly what he means. That's one of his many flaws.
OTOH Trump's quote about who commits violent crime is unfortunately pretty much correct. Based on statistics from the U.S. Department of Justice and the Census Bureau, blacks committed about 8.8 times more violent felonies per capita than non-Hispanic whites did over 1990-2002, and Hispanics committed about 6.5 times more. http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2015/07/hispanics_in_the_us_are_more_violent_than_nonhispanic_whites.html BTW most victims of black violent crime are themselves black.
David -- According to Huffington Post, Trump claimed that "the only people that immigrate to the United States are the ones 'that have lots of problems.'" In other words, every single immigrant has lots of problems. I'm sorry, but Trump never said that. He has said plenty of stupid things, but nothing quite that stupid. In fact, the link supplied by Huffington Post disproves their interpretation of Trump's comment: it includes Trump's comment, "And, I assume, some [Mexican immigrants] are good people."
DiC wrote: "David -- According to Huffington Post, Trump claimed that "the only people that immigrate to the United States are the ones 'that have lots of problems.' In other words, every single immigrant has lots of problems. I'm sorry, but Trump never said that."
TRUMP QUOTE: "When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending people *THAT HAVE LOTS OF PROBLEMS*, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people."
David -- I didn't like that Trump quote. The typical illegal immigrant from Mexico isn't a criminal. Well, he's committing a crime by coming here illegally, but he's not intending to lead of crime. I come from an immigrant family, so I tend to be pro-immigrant.
But, the fact that 6 Americans, who were not Mexican immigrants won Nobel Prizes in science would seem to have nothing to do with Trump's ugly statement.
Dic wrote: "But, the fact that 6 Americans, who were not Mexican immigrants won Nobel Prizes in science would seem to have nothing to do with Trump's ugly statement."
Of course it does -- it shows the true ugliness behind Trump's comment.
150-100 years ago the immigrants hated by you and Trump were Irish and Italians and German and Polish. And blacks, forcibly relocated.
Yet they came here, made it their home, and contributed to the country, including to its science. Except perhaps African Americans, who are still being stomped on.
And now the immigrants of today, those who you and Trump now hate, are coming here, from Latin America and elsewhere. There is no reason at all to think they won't rise in American society just as the Poles and Germans and the Irish and the Italians once did -- my ancestors.
Bigotry now is just as misplaced as was bigotry then.
David, I resent you accusing me of hating immigrants. As I said, I came from an immigrant family and I am pro-immigrant. What I was writing about was the proper use of quanitifiers. That's not as important as bigotry, but I'm a math nerd. Proper logic is a big deal to me. My point was that the Huffington Post accused Trump of saying that ALL immigrants are bad. He actually said SOME or MANY immigrants are bad.
I agree with your point that Latin American immigrants will rise in American society, just as the Poles, Germans, and Irish did. I live among hard-working, honest, ambitious Hispanic immigrants; I see this process daily.
Huffington Post's logic is a copy of Donald Trump's. Trump says some immigrants are criminals, so all immigrants are bad. Huffington says six immigrants won Nobel Prizes, so all immigrants are good.
ReplyDeleteWhere does it say that???
ReplyDeleteNo, the Huffington Post's argument is quite different logically.
ReplyDeleteIt is this, more or less:
Winners of Nobel Prizes are good.
This year's winners are all immigrants.
Therefore there are some immigrants who are good,
This contradicts the assertion that all immigrants are bad.
Huffington Post doesn't state an argument. They don't provide their opinion of the significance of the 6 immigrant Nobel Prize winners. That's a rhetorical trick, inviting the reader to interpret it for him/herself.
ReplyDeleteOnymousGuy's interpretation looks plausible to me. But, it's based on a falsehood. Trump has NOT said all immigrants are bad. He has criticized two types of immigrants: Muslims and illegal immigrants from Latin America. AFAIK none of the 6 American Nobel Prized winners belongs to either of these groups.
Trump is such an awful candidate, you'd think Huffington Post could criticize him based on facts, rather than an exaggerated caricature of his actual views.
Cheers
David in Cal said...
ReplyDelete"Huffington Post doesn't state an argument. They don't provide their opinion of the significance of the 6 immigrant Nobel Prize winners. That's a rhetorical trick, inviting the reader to interpret it for him/herself."
Do you really honestly need help interpretating the work of Nobel Laureates in the sciences?
"Huffington says six immigrants won Nobel Prizes, so all immigrants are good."
Can you please quote that line from the HP? I must have missed it.
DiC says: Trump has NOT said all immigrants are bad. He has criticized two types of immigrants: Muslims and illegal immigrants from Latin America.
ReplyDelete"When Mexico sends their people they're not sending their best. They're sending people who have lots of problems. They're bringing those problems with us (sic). They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people"
Nothing about illegal immigrants there. And it's not just Mexicans:
"But you have people coming in, and I'm not just saying Mexicans. I'm talking about people from all over that are killers and rapists and they're coming into this country."
Not just immigrants though. Skin colour matters too:
"Sadly, the overwhelming amount of violent crime in our major cities is committed by blacks and hispanics."
The Huffington Post has a good point. With Hitler on the rise, Einstein and his family fled their native Germany and emigrated to America. Lucky for us. Not so good for the Nazis. Here are six more examples of why America is great.
Will tomorrow's Einstein flee America? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxsO6DT108o
ReplyDeleteYou have a point Layzej. However, Trump speaks off the cuff, and imprecisely, so he doesn't always say exactly what he means. That's one of his many flaws.
ReplyDeleteOTOH Trump's quote about who commits violent crime is unfortunately pretty much correct. Based on statistics from the U.S. Department of Justice and the Census Bureau, blacks committed about 8.8 times more violent felonies per capita than non-Hispanic whites did over 1990-2002, and Hispanics committed about 6.5 times more. http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2015/07/hispanics_in_the_us_are_more_violent_than_nonhispanic_whites.html BTW most victims of black violent crime are themselves black.
David -- According to Huffington Post, Trump claimed that "the only people that immigrate to the United States are the ones 'that have lots of problems.'" In other words, every single immigrant has lots of problems. I'm sorry, but Trump never said that. He has said plenty of stupid things, but nothing quite that stupid. In fact, the link supplied by Huffington Post disproves their interpretation of Trump's comment: it includes Trump's comment, "And, I assume, some [Mexican immigrants] are good people."
cheers
DiC says: "Trump speaks off the cuff, and imprecisely, so he doesn't always say exactly what he means.">
ReplyDeleteIt would be easy to dismiss the parts we disagree with as imprecise and accept the rest as cannon. How can we judge Donald if not by his words?
How can we judge Donald if not by his words?
ReplyDeleteDamned if I know. He has changed his intentions so often that I don't believe any of them. I have no idea what he'd do as President.
cheers
DiC wrote:
ReplyDelete"David -- According to Huffington Post, Trump claimed that "the only people that immigrate to the United States are the ones 'that have lots of problems.' In other words, every single immigrant has lots of problems. I'm sorry, but Trump never said that."
TRUMP QUOTE: "When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending people *THAT HAVE LOTS OF PROBLEMS*, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people."
(emphasis mine)
Newsday, 9/23/16
http://www.newsday.com/news/nation/donald-trump-speech-debates-and-campaign-quotes-1.11206532
David -- I didn't like that Trump quote. The typical illegal immigrant from Mexico isn't a criminal. Well, he's committing a crime by coming here illegally, but he's not intending to lead of crime. I come from an immigrant family, so I tend to be pro-immigrant.
ReplyDeleteBut, the fact that 6 Americans, who were not Mexican immigrants won Nobel Prizes in science would seem to have nothing to do with Trump's ugly statement.
DiC wrote:
ReplyDelete"David -- I didn't like that Trump quote."
But he DID say it.
And you claimed he did not say it.
You were wrong.
Dic wrote:
ReplyDelete"But, the fact that 6 Americans, who were not Mexican immigrants won Nobel Prizes in science would seem to have nothing to do with Trump's ugly statement."
Of course it does -- it shows the true ugliness behind Trump's comment.
150-100 years ago the immigrants hated by you and Trump were Irish and Italians and German and Polish. And blacks, forcibly relocated.
Yet they came here, made it their home, and contributed to the country, including to its science. Except perhaps African Americans, who are still being stomped on.
And now the immigrants of today, those who you and Trump now hate, are coming here, from Latin America and elsewhere. There is no reason at all to think they won't rise in American society just as the Poles and Germans and the Irish and the Italians once did -- my ancestors.
Bigotry now is just as misplaced as was bigotry then.
As bigotry always is -- based on fear.
David, I resent you accusing me of hating immigrants. As I said, I came from an immigrant family and I am pro-immigrant. What I was writing about was the proper use of quanitifiers. That's not as important as bigotry, but I'm a math nerd. Proper logic is a big deal to me. My point was that the Huffington Post accused Trump of saying that ALL immigrants are bad. He actually said SOME or MANY immigrants are bad.
ReplyDeleteI agree with your point that Latin American immigrants will rise in American society, just as the Poles, Germans, and Irish did. I live among hard-working, honest, ambitious Hispanic immigrants; I see this process daily.