I'm rather busy lately and anyway in more of a listening mode than talking or writing mode, but here's a post you can use if you want to discuss anything or everything that's going on in the US right now, and, impressively, all over the world.
Or, discuss anything else you want, such as COVID-19, police brutality, the protests, the rioting, climate change, face masks or the last five months of Donald Trump's presidency.
How many unarmed Americans were shot dead by police in 2019?
ReplyDeleteHow many of them were black and how many were white?
I will provide the answer after a few people guess the answer.
Cheers
1,004
ReplyDeleteWhite: 371
Black: 236
Hispanic: 158
Other: 39
Unknown: 200
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/national/police-shootings-2019/
Unarmed, though: 41
ReplyDeleteOf the unarmed:
ReplyDeleteWhite: 20
Black: 10
Hispanic: 6
Other: 4
Unknown: 1
Disproportionately black.
Yes, David. I was surprised at how few unarmed black Americans were shot dead by police.
ReplyDeleteHow few? Why are there any? Why are they disproportionately black?
ReplyDeleteYour statistic wouldn’t have counted George Floyd....
ReplyDeleteDo you think your statistic means the problem of police racism is overblown?
ReplyDeleteYes, I think the problem of police racism is overblown. Thomas Sowell once pointed out a fact that's almost offensive to be mentioned by a white person. Black Americans commit a disproportionate share of crimes. That's why police are more suspicious of blacks. If police were motivated by pure racism, then Asians would be disproportionately victims of police brutality. But, it's just the reverse. Asians are treated better than whites. The reason is that Asians commit fewer crimes.
ReplyDeleteCheers
Is there any chance that systemic racism is responsible for the disparity, or are you suggesting the melanin is the cause? Wikipedia references studies that suggest the former: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States
ReplyDelete"Minneapolis Police Use Force Against Black People at 7 Times the Rate of Whites," NY Times 6/3/20.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/06/03/us/minneapolis-police-use-of-force.html
Layzej - My ideas have no particular value. I have no expertise or knowledge of this area. For what it's worth (probably nothing) I think there are a number of aspects that deserve study
ReplyDelete1. Systemic racism
2. Bad Democratic policies and leadership. This is plausible, since just about all the police misbehavior toward blacks takes place in cities long governed by Democrats.
3. Leaving "rotten apples" in the police department, rather than firing them. The officer who murdered George Floyd had a bad record. He was retained despite some past misdeeds.
4. Police unions. To what degree do police unions make it difficult or impossible to get rid of bad cops?
5. Bad behavior by blacks. This was the point made by Dr. Sowell. Police react differently to blacks than they do to whites or Asians, because blacks on average behave worse. That's unfair to the majority of blacks who don't misbehave, but it may be reality.
Cheers
“ Yes, I think the problem of police racism is overblown.”
ReplyDeleteTell that to the MOVE survivors. The MOVE Commission issued its report on March 6, 1986. The report denounced the actions of the city government, stating that "Dropping a bomb on an occupied row house was unconscionable."
David in Cal, you display appalling ignorance.
There is a world far beyond the Hoover Institution.
OnymousGuy - A single example from over 1/3 century ago proves little. BTW there is a more recent, appalling example of misbehavior against white people by law enforcement. That would be the 76 Branch Davidians killed in 1993. Much of the death was due to faulty actions by the Dept of Justice.
ReplyDeleteBeing a minority myself, I have strong views on what works. Today, black Americans have enormous opportunities. Despite some degree of unequal treatment from the outside, the biggest key to black advancement is internal, within their own community. If black parents emulated Sonya Carson, inequality would disappear. IMHO it's unfortunate that that victims, like poor George Floyd, are held up as examples, rather than positive heroes, like Sonya Carson.
I suffered inequality working in the antisemitic insurance business. Nevertheless, I did the best I could. I achieved pretty good success for myself. By being a good employee, I also encouraged the hiring of other Jews.
That is a ridiculous comparison.
ReplyDeleteFour ATF agents were killed by the Branch Davidians. Most of those killed in Waco were killed by the fire started by the Branch Davidians themselves. Yes, the loss of life was terrible, but unlike the MOVE case, there were convictions against the members of the sect.
You have a peculiar ability to see the world through a narrow lens, The distortions are skewing your perspective.
David, how does being a white Jew compare to be an African American? Most African Americans never even get the education, or are able to get the education, to rise to the level they'd need to apply for the jobs you were able to apply for/were discriminated against. You even read of/hear of professional blacks tell stories of their harrowing encounters with police. Have you ever had a harrowing encounter with a police?
ReplyDeleteDon't get me wrong -- I abhor anti-semitism no less than other racism. I'm sorry to hear you've had to go through that. I wish it were different. Some of my best friends are Jews, and I greatly value their culture. But I don't think US anti-semitism is of the same degree as the American racism against blacks or hispanics, where the racism is so endemic they can't possibly rise to the level where they'd experience the kind of racism you did. Perhaps it was some decades ago. But with the same level of violence?
I would argue that most African Americans are able to get a proper education, if they go for it. Thomas Sowell, raised in Harlem, nevertheless graduated magna cum laude from Harvard and got a Ph.D. in Economics from the University of Chicago. That was long before Affirmative Action. Clarence Thomas went to Southern segregated schools, yet earned a law degree from Yale. Ben Carson, raised primarily in Detroit by a single parent, became Director of Pediatric Neurosurgery at the Johns Hopkins Hospital and author of many books, etc. Asians in New York City are poorer than blacks, on average, yet their academic achievements are better than whites. If these people can do it, other blacks can do it. The opportunity is there, if they go for it.
ReplyDeleteWorrying about unequal treatment is less productive than supporting the education of black children. Black children would be better off IMHO if David Blackwell were better known than Rodney King or Trayvon Martin.
"Black children would be better off IMHO if David Blackwell were better known than Rodney King or Trayvon Martin."
ReplyDeleteYou think that black history month would solve systemic racism and violence against minorities, or you think we should just ignore the latter?
Layzej - I think the biggest problem is that there's a black underclass in the US. The underclass has the worst of everything - worse jobs, worse health, worse crime, worse education, worse intellectual abilities, etc. The Great Society and continuing spending did not eliminate the underclass. The anti-racism activities did not eliminate the underclass.
ReplyDeleteAsians were once an underclass in this country. That's particularly clear here in California history. Asians are no longer an underclass. How did they do it? They quietly worked hard and became high achievers. I suspect that there's still some systemic racist feelings against Asians. However, the important thing is that they are no longer an underclass. What worked for Asians can work for blacks.
Although systemic racism against blacks still exists, racism is not the big problem holding blacks back. Black schools get equal or greater funding. Colleges discriminate strongly in favor of black students, staff, and faculty. Employers discriminate in favor of blacks, at least for lower level and mid-level jobs. Blacks can succeed, regardless of the fact that some people don't like them. I have a half black cousin who is an author. She's brilliant and wonderful. She chooses to call herself "black". That designation probably helped her career a bit. For one thing, she sometimes gets selected by the New York Times Book Review to review books by black authors.
I have always interested in black advancement. For that reason, I recommend what works.
Cheers
Regarding David Blackwell, I think it would be well if black children were taught to emulate this brilliant black mathematician, just as Jewish children were taught to emulate Albert Einstein. I wish Blackwell were better known.
ReplyDeleteCheers
This report seems to indicate that you are wrong: "NON-WHITE SCHOOL DISTRICTS GET $23 BILLION LESS FUNDING THAN WHITE ONES"
ReplyDeleteYou previously mentioned: "Thomas Sowell, raised in Harlem, nevertheless graduated magna cum laude from Harvard and got a Ph.D. in Economics from the University of Chicago."
That there was a person who overcame systemic racism doesn't mean that systemic racism isn't a problem.
"School funding matters. In an oft-cited paper published in the American Economic Journal, the economists Julien Lafortune, Jesse Rothstein, and Diane Whitmore Schanzenbach calculated that 1990s-era school finance reforms produced "large" improvements in achievement for students in low-income districts that received more funding. Likewise, in a paper published in The Quarterly Journal of Economics in 2016, researchers C. Kirabo Jackson, Rucker C. Johnson, and Claudia Persico concluded that increases in school funding resulting from lawsuits led to students completing more years of education, and enjoying higher wages and lower rates of poverty in adulthood."
Layzej - This report from Brookings draws a different conclusion than the one you link to.
ReplyDeleteWe find that, on average, poor and minority students receive between 1-2 percent more resources than non-poor or white students in their districts, equivalent to about $65 per pupil.
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/brown-center-chalkboard/2017/05/25/do-school-districts-spend-less-money-on-poor-and-minority-students/
I don't know enough to sort out which of these reports is more accurate. I agree with you that funding is at least somewhat important.
My own experience may be relevant. I attended the first 6 years of school in the Bronx, where school funding was low. My family moved to the suburbs in 7th grade. My suburban classmates had richer and more pleasant elementary education, but my reading and arithmetic were not behind my suburban classmates.
Cheers
David, regarding education you listed three blacks: Sowell, Thomas and Carson. Surely you of all people know that they are not a representative sample.
ReplyDeleteSo how about some statistics?
David, from what I've gleaned you seem to have a very interesting life story. Maybe you'd like to share more of it?
ReplyDelete(OK if not.)
David in Cal wrote:
ReplyDelete>> Asians were once an underclass in this country. That's particularly clear here in California history. Asians are no longer an underclass. How did they do it? They quietly worked hard and became high achievers. I suspect that there's still some systemic racist feelings against Asians. However, the important thing is that they are no longer an underclass. What worked for Asians can work for blacks. <<
Yes, but Asians don't have the legacy of slavery that blacks have, of systematic oppression, of Jim Crow, of the same degree of discrimination.
Has a town ever refused to let an asian child enroll in a school or university? Have asians ever experienced lynchings? Do they experience prejudice in the criminal justice system that lead to a vastly disproportionate prison population? Are they stopped by the police in vastly disproportionate numbers for driving-while-asian? Have their families been torn apart for generations by this kind of disproportionate policing and imprisioning?
I think David in Cal's comparison between Asian Americans and Black Americans has been debunked and pointed to as "a classic and tenacious conservative strategy" done for years. From this article: https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2017/04/19/524571669/model-minority-myth-again-used-as-a-racial-wedge-between-asians-and-blacks
ReplyDelete"This strategy, she said, involves "1) ignoring the role that selective recruitment of highly educated Asian immigrants has played in Asian American success followed by 2) making a flawed comparison between Asian Americans and other groups, particularly Black Americans, to argue that racism, including more than two centuries of black enslavement, can be overcome by hard work and strong family values.""
Thanks for the link, yo. I sincerely appreciate it, although I found the article repulsive. Its message to blacks is that they cannot succeed until racism is ended. That's a terrible, discouraging thing to tell people. And, it's false.
ReplyDeleteOpportunities abound, thanks to black peoples' own efforts, to anti-discrimination laws, to affirmative action, and to good-hearted. Americans. Consider my dear cousin by marriage, a black woman named Blanche. Blanche tragically died a few days ago, so she's on my mind. Blanche got a Ph.D. in English, became a tenured Professor and wrote two textbooks. She felt unfulfilled, so she took science classes at night and then went to medical school. She specialized in geriatrics.
How did racism affect her? She had one bad boss at New Jersey Medical School who forced her out of a job. Perhaps he was motivated by racism. OTOH she may have benefited from preferences in getting into medical school in middle age. However, IMHO the main thing is that the opportunity existed to become and English Professor and then a medical doctor. Blanche worked hard to take advantage of the opportunities. Many other black people are getting good educations and good jobs. I think it's cruel to tell black people that they can't do what my cousin Blanche and many others did because of racism.
Cheers
David = you raise some interesting questions: How much of a person's character is determined by what happened to his/her ethnic ancestors? What is the mechanism by which the conditions of one's ancestors hundreds of years ago affects one's current character? Can the link be broken, so that modern-day black people will not be affected by having slave ancestors? Also, is the history of slavery really a big problem for modern day blacks, or or are there actually different causes for their current situation?
ReplyDeleteThomas Sowell's answer to most of these questions is character. He believes the character of a people tends to persist and has great importance.
Cheers
DiC: "I found the article repulsive. Its message to blacks is that they cannot succeed until racism is ended."
ReplyDeleteI didn't see anything prescriptive in there. It was just taking on a myth. You seem to suggest that we should prefer the myth because it is more encouraging, but we can't overcome systemic racism by turning a blind eye.
Layzej - thanks for your response. I found many untrue things about the article -- too many to list. My big disagreement is the idea that blacks today are suppressed by systemic racism. I would argue
ReplyDelete1. The US is doing well at overcoming racism. That's proved by the election of Barack Obama and many other blacks. It's proved by the many black professionals, black idols, etc. It's proved by a growing amount of inter-marriage.
2. Whatever degree of racism still exists, it's not enough to prevent a black American from succeeding at whatever s/he sets out to do. In fact, thanks to preferences, black Americans sometimes get a boost. E.g., my cousin's son David is half-black. David went to Princeton and is now an independent computer consultant. I know of no situation where he was harmed by his race.
BTW I find the term "systemic racism" untrue and provocative. No doubt some racism exists. But, it's not systemic. The current American system of laws and regulations has no anti-black racism.
Cheers
I stumbled upon this (dated and somewhat cringeworthy) passage in The Emigrants Guide to Canada:
ReplyDelete"The land in the township of Waterloo is very good, and the farms greatly improved; the stock large, and in excellent condition; the inhabitants, are mostly Dutch. Their dwelling-houses, offices, and gardens, are kept with a degree of neatness not to be surpassed in Canada. Occasionally the traveller meets the residence of a negro family, whose house and farm speak the steady labour that has been bestowed on them, and clearly proves, that the negro will not prove too indolent for labour in a state of freedom: numbers of these poor creatures escape from that land of liberty, the United States, and settle in various parts of the Canadas."
This was written in 1833. There is little to distinguish DiC's comments from those the narrator is mocking. It's surprising how little has changed in 200 years.
DiC: "BTW I find the term "systemic racism" untrue and provocative."
ReplyDeleteAt the start of the conversation "systemic racism" was listed at #1 on your list of "aspects that deserve study". What changed?
Good question, Layzej. It took a look time for me to finally notice that the adjective "systemic" is not accurate today, at least not as applies to black Americans. Many colleges do systematically bias their admissions process against Asian applicants.
ReplyDeleteCheers
...took a LONG time...
ReplyDeleteYour post listing systemic racism as #1 on the list was in response to this link:
ReplyDeleteResearch also indicates that there is extensive racial and ethnic discrimination by police and the judicial system.
...blacks are more harshly sentenced by juries and judges than whites when the underlying facts and circumstances of the cases are similar
...blacks receive considerably longer sentences for the same or lesser offenses on average than white offenders with equal or greater criminal records.
...Research suggests that police practices, such as racial profiling, over-policing in areas populated by minorities and in-group bias may result in disproportionately high numbers of racial minorities among crime suspects.[95][96][97][98] Research also suggests that there is discrimination by the judicial system, which contributes to a higher number of convictions and unfavorable sentencing for racial minorities.[99][100][101][102][103][11][10][104][105]
...A 2012 study found that "(i) juries formed from all-white jury
...Republican-appointed judges give substantially longer prison sentences to black offenders versus observably similar non-black offenders
...etc etc etc
No systemic racism? Just a whole barrel of bad apples? Is there a difference?
David in Cal wrote:
ReplyDelete"The current American system of laws and regulations has no anti-black racism."
Why are blacks disproportionately victims of COVID-19?
Why is the prison population disproportionately black?
Why aren't felons allowed to vote in many states?
Why are there hundreds of statues of Confederate soldiers, generals and politicians in the South?
Why are blacks more likely to be incarcerated than whites for the same crime, more likely to receive a longer sentence than whites for the same crime, more likely to be jailed pending trail, and more:
https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/publications/racial-disparity-sentencing
Of arrests for not social distancing in NYC, 35 people were black, four were Hispanic and one was white.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/07/nyregion/nypd-social-distancing-race-coronavirus.html
Why are black drivers 20% more likely to get pulled over than white drivers?
https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/21/us/police-stops-race-stanford-study-trnd/index.html
Why are there only 4 black Fortune 500 CEOs?
ReplyDeletehttps://www.businessinsider.com/there-are-four-black-fortune-500-ceos-here-they-are-2020-2
Blacks are 12% of the US population, so there should be about 60.
"Thomas Sowell's answer to most of these questions is character. He believes the character of a people tends to persist and has great importance."
ReplyDeleteWhat's Sowell's evidence? Or is it his ideology?
The US is one of the worst advanced countries for movement between classes.
From the NY Times, 1/4/2012:
"At least five large studies in recent years have found the United States to be less mobile than comparable nations. A project led by Markus Jantti, an economist at a Swedish university, found that 42 percent of American men raised in the bottom fifth of incomes stay there as adults. That shows a level of persistent disadvantage much higher than in Denmark (25 percent) and Britain (30 percent) — a country famous for its class constraints.
"Meanwhile, just 8 percent of American men at the bottom rose to the top fifth. That compares with 12 percent of the British and 14 percent of the Danes.
"Despite frequent references to the United States as a classless society, about 62 percent of Americans (male and female) raised in the top fifth of incomes stay in the top two-fifths, according to research by the Economic Mobility Project of the Pew Charitable Trusts. Similarly, 65 percent born in the bottom fifth stay in the bottom two-fifths."
https://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/us/harder-for-americans-to-rise-from-lower-rungs.html
I like the video game analogy. Starting as a white kid with wealthy parents is like playing on turorial, while playing as black, woman or just born by poor parents is playing on a much harder difficulty level. If you are good enough you can win either way, but most people are by definition average.
ReplyDeleteDavid - Here are my answers to your questions.
ReplyDeleteWhy are blacks disproportionately victims of COVID-19?
Dr. Fauci said that the reason is that blacks, on average, are in worse health. They're more susceptible. My guess FWIW is that there may be other factors as well. Blacks live in more congested areas, on average. Perhaps blacks take less care to preserve social distancing, on average. Blacks are poorer, on average. Economic circumstances may make it more difficult for poor people to maintain social distancing.
Why is the prison population disproportionately black?
Because blacks commit disproportionately more crimes -- more than whites and more than Asians. BTW, black criminals' victims are mostly other black people. The current anti-police attitude will probably result in less police protection and many more black crime victims. BLACK LIVES MATTER is a sick joke. That approach will result in many more black murder victims, just as it did in 2015-2016.
BTW I won't apologize for black criminals. Their crimes are the responsibility of the criminals. It's the criminals who should apologize. The white community is not responsible for black crimes. I think one can make a good case that some liberal policies have been bad for the black community. That's a complex subject.
Why aren't felons allowed to vote in many states?
This has nothing to do with race. Its goes back to a time when only a few very serious crimes were "felonies". It was felt that someone who had heinously violated our laws had no business creating laws. Over time, many more crimes became categorized as "felonies", so there is a valid reason to re-consider this practice.
Why are there hundreds of statues of Confederate soldiers, generals and politicians in the South?
Is it racism to be proud of you region's history? Does the existence of these statues oppress black people? I don't know. I don't live in the South and I cant't read the minds of Southerners, black or white.
Why are blacks more likely to be incarcerated than whites for the same crime, more likely to receive a longer sentence than whites...
I don't know the answer. Today's liberals appear more concerned about black criminals than black victims of crime. Having black criminals incarcerated is goodfor honest black people.
Cheers
DiC wrote:
ReplyDelete"Is it racism to be proud of you region's history? Does the existence of these statues oppress black people?"
David, as a Jew, how would you feel about a statue of Josef Mengele in your town, honoring him for his pre-War work on the genetic factors that cause cleft lip and palate?
DA asked: "Why are blacks more likely to be incarcerated than whites for the same crime, more likely to receive a longer sentence than whites..."
ReplyDeleteDiC replied: "I don't know the answer. Today's liberals appear more concerned about black criminals than black victims of crime. Having black criminals incarcerated is goodfor honest black people."
It's no longer good enough to say "I don't know the answer. I think that's partly what this current movement is about -- white apathy to systemic racism. Liberals are concerned about crime victims -- they're the ones in downtrodden neighborhoods, trying to make a difference -- conservatives don't seem able to care less. But liberals are also concerned about prejudice in the system, because that in part perpetuates black crime. If blacks disproportionately go to prison, then black children disproportionately grow up without a parent (usually the father). The disproportionately incarcerated man comes out and usually must take a job much further down on the economic ladder, if he can get a job at all and mustn't resort to crime, which disproportionately sets him back relative to whites, and disproportionately sets his family back, and his neighborhood, and his entire psychology.
It perpetuates the status quo. Don't you see this David? You seem to overlook many causative factors and just take a easy, typical conservative attitude, that there are more black criminals so there are more blacks in prison, end of story. But it's really the beginning of the story.
David
ReplyDeleteWhy are there only 4 black Fortune 500 CEOs? Blacks are 12% of the US population, so there should be about 60
Years ago, racism would have been the answer. Today, thanks to affirmative action, blacks probably have more opportunities than whites and Asians -- for admission to college and professional schools and in employment. For some reason, blacks, on average, have been less successful in business than other ethnic groups.
I need to apologize for a error. I meant to write that Sowell's answer was culture, not character. Why is culture key? That's a big question. Let's take education. Why are black students, on average, 3 to 4 years behind whites and 4 to 5 years behind Asian students? A few possibilities come to mind: culture, history of slavery and Jim Crow, genetics, poverty, racism. The first two are really the same. If the history of slavery and Jim Crow is holding back students today, it's because slavery and Jim Crow have somehow affected the current black culture. Liberals might like to blame racism, but it's hard to find actual evidence of specific ways in which racism has made black children into worse students. Poverty probably plays a role, but Asians today and Jews 100 years ago out-performed the majority educationally, despite being poor.
One aspect of culture that I saw in my own family was a disapproval of high educational achievement as 'acting white'. My cousin's half-black children encountered this problem in their integrated public schools.
Cheers
David - you say "Liberals are concerned about crime victims -- they're the ones in downtrodden neighborhoods, trying to make a difference." Sorry, I don't buy that. Liberals imagine that they care, because it makes them feel virtuous. If they really cared, they'd notice what the real problems are and what policies actually help.
ReplyDeleteConsider the minimum wage. It's great for unions and terrible for poor blacks. It keeps black youths out of the work force. Some years back, Teddy Kennedy led the fight for a higher minimum wage. Some begged him to allow a lower wage for young people, but Kennedy refused. That approach is one reason why Sen Sanders in 2016 rightfully pointed out that the real unemployment rate for black youth was 50%!.
Consider alternative schools. Alternatives are vital for some children who are trapped in bad school situations. Democrats oppose alternatives. They pay lip service to blacks, but their policies are designed to benefit public school teachers.
Consider crime victims: Liberal media barely mention black murder victims, when the perp is black. They don't really care that much about black murder victims; they care about blaming whites and police. Quite few black people were killed this week in the riots, but they get little publicity. Blacks living in high crime neighborhoods have the same needs as your or I: they need more police protection. The media bias is so great that many people are unaware of how many more blacks as killed by blacks than by police. Many people are unaware that blacks kill a lot more police than vice versa.
Cheers
David - If there were a statue of Mengele in my town, that would be disgusting. However, the statue would not keep me from studying and working. In fact, it would probably motivate me to work all the harder.
ReplyDeleteCheers
DA asked: "Why are there only 4 black Fortune 500 CEOs? Blacks are 12% of the US population, so there should be about 60."
ReplyDeleteDavid in Cal wrote: "Years ago, racism would have been the answer. Today, thanks to affirmative action, blacks probably have more opportunities than whites and Asians -- for admission to college and professional schools and in employment. For some reason, blacks, on average, have been less successful in business than other ethnic groups."
Affirmative action might get you in the front door. It doesn't get you into the Executive Suite.
"For some reason...?" Come on, you're not that naive.
David - here's a quote from a 2018 paper by Gail Herriot, a conservative member of the US Commission of Civil Rights:
ReplyDeleteCommissioner Heriot points out that, during the Jim Crow Era, the most common complaint among African Americans about law enforcement was that the authorities did not take crime against African Americans seriously. Although that kind of neglect receives little attention in the media today, it continues to be a significant problem.
Heriot cautions reformers not to lose sight of that concern. As crime declined in the United States in the 1990s and early 2000s, many African American neighborhoods in many different parts of the country blossomed. While certainly improvements in police practices can be made, it is important not to engage in “reforms” that will discourage police officers from enforcing the law in African American neighborhoods.
I sadly fear that this warning is just what's going to happen.
Cheers
Re: education
ReplyDelete"SCHOOL DISTRICTS WHERE the majority of students enrolled are students of color receive $23 billion less in education funding than predominantly white school districts, despite serving the same number of students – a dramatic discrepancy that underscores the depth of K-12 funding inequities in the U.S."
https://www.usnews.com/news/education-news/articles/2019-02-26/white-students-get-more-k-12-funding-than-students-of-color-report
These things aren't difficult to look up, David.
David - take a look at the average spending per student by state at https://worldpopulationreview.com/states/per-pupil-spending-by-state/
ReplyDeleteSpending in mostly black D.C. is $21,974. In heavily minority New York, it's $23,091. On the other hand, spending per student in primarily white Utah and Idaho is $7,179 and $7,486 respectively -- around 1/3 as much. Does this mean that there's enormous systemic racism against Utahans and Idahoans? Of course not. These figures illustrate two points:
1. One should only compare spending by race within a state or within a school system. AFAIK black schools within a given state get the same funding as white schools. In New York State, I think the black schools have higher spending per pupil than the white schools. The difference in the average you present is because a lot of blacks live in states with lower average spending. The figures you quote are statistical trickery.
2. Spending per pupil is only a part of educational quality. Schools in New York are not three times as good as schools in Utah. In fact, they might be worse.
Cheers
David in Cal wrote;
ReplyDelete"One should only compare spending by race within a state or within a school system. AFAIK black schools within a given state get the same funding as white schools. In New York State, I think the black schools have higher spending per pupil than the white schools."
This cries out for data.
David in Cal wrote:
ReplyDelete"The difference in the average you present is because a lot of blacks live in states with lower average spending. The figures you quote are statistical trickery."
Right HERE is where the subtleties of racism show.
Why should black students receive less educational funding at all?
Who cares what state they live in? Why do students in different states get different funding amounts, anyway? Why isn't it all equal throughout the country, accounting for different costs of living?
With schools funded, in part, sometimes in large part, by property taxes, affluent areas are going to have better schools than poorer areas. White neighborhood tend to be more affluent than black neighborhoods. => racism in school quality
The answer is, Americans by and large don't want equal school funding across the board. Whites, on average, want their schools to reflect their superior position in society.
So this turns out to be a great example of institutionalized racism.
The state of California contributes a lot of money to local school districts. That equalizes the spending by district within California. I thought that was the situation in most states, but maybe not. David, do you have any information about how school funding varies by district within each state?
ReplyDeleteCheers
DiC: "AFAIK black schools within a given state get the same funding as white schools. In New York State, I think the black schools have higher spending per pupil than the white schools."
ReplyDeleteThis neatly sums up your attitude on this subject. You presume that everyone has had the opportunities that you and your kin have enjoyed. Anyone who hasn't enjoyed those opportunities, well, that's because there's something wrong with them.
"as far as I know..." and "I think..." speak more about you than they do of the facts.
You can find the facts here:
DiC: "In New York State, I think the black schools have higher spending per pupil than the white schools."
New York: On average high-poverty, nonwhite school districts in New York have $4,094 LESS per student in funding than high-poverty white school districts. There is also a disparity of 1,149 in non-white low poverty districts vs the white counterpart.
DiC: "The state of California contributes a lot of money to local school districts. That equalizes the spending by district within California."
California: On average high-poverty, nonwhite school districts in California have $3,974 LESS per student in funding than high-poverty white school districts. In low poverty districts the disparity is $1,860.
Thanks very much for the information, Layzej.
ReplyDeleteMachine learning will further entrench existing biases. IBM has just written a letter to congress that touches on this.
ReplyDelete"David, do you have any information about how school funding varies by district within each state?"
ReplyDeleteNo, but feel free to do a little Googling.
Just when you think that Trump couldn't get any more irresponsible he has now tweeted a conspiracy theory about the seriously injured Buffolo protester. His "evidence" is from a nutty right wing news service. I hoped when he was elected that he would grow into the job but I might have known that was a forlorn hope when he phoned and thanked Alex Jones for his support and said he wouldn't let him and his supporters down. Let's hope this nightmare ends this year.
ReplyDeleteDavid in Cal wrote:
ReplyDelete"I suffered inequality working in the antisemitic insurance business."
Is there any evidence for this? Perhaps you were just a mediocre employee. After all, Jews have done very well in several fields: physics, math, banking, the diamond business. I'm sure we could all name several prominent jews who were very successful in physics: Einstein, Oppenheimer, Gell-Mann. I don't see why they couldn't do well in the insurance business.