Should we really ignore a climate expert like Willie Soon but pay attention to a scientifically ignorant child who said she has been "diagnosed with Asperger syndrome, OCD, and selective mutism"?Cheers
DiC, since when is Willie Soon a "climate expert"? The guy who deliberately hid his funding sources?Thunberg says "listen to the scientists", Soon says "listen to me".
David, I'm surprised to read this -- your comment about Thunberg is beneath you.
The description of Thunberg's condition was her words. It's factual. In 2018, she described her own illnesses in a TEDx Talk, where she explained that she fell into a depression and became ill when she was eleven years old. “I stopped talking. I stopped eating. In two months, I lost about ten kilos of weight. Later on I was diagnosed with Asperger’s syndrome, OCD, and selective mutism—that basically means I only speak when I think it’s necessary.”https://www.commondreams.org/news/2018/12/19/depressed-and-then-diagnosed-autism-greta-thunberg-explains-why-hope-cannot-savecheers
David, do you think people with mental health issues aren't allowed to speak out?
She has every right to speak out, but IMHO she isn't worth listening to. I find it bizarre and even frightening that the world is paying attention to a child with no scientific or economic or political or engineering expertise. Her mental health issues reduce her credibility even farther IMHO. Cheers
How does someone's mental health issues per se reduce their credibility? How does depression reduce one's ability to think and say truthful things? OCD? I actually have a touch of OCD myself -- I sometimes feel compelled to touch corners, on tables or counters or my laptop or once in a while even something on television. It comes and it goes. It never dominates my life by any means, and in fact I've never admitted it to anyone except the occasional doctor. (I've never sought treatment of any kind, just mentioned it if they ask about it in an evaluation.) It's a little annoying sometimes, like a hangnail is annoying.Am I less credible because I have a touch of OCD?
I watched an interview with her the other day. She cracks me up. Here's a five minute clip showing her previous speech to the UN. Her father was anxious about a few of the lines and asked her to remove them.I remember that speech because before, I had prepared a speech. And my father read it through and he said "you cannot say this. This is too radical. You will embarrass yourself and you will embarrass everyone because you cannot say this"And then I said ok and I cut it out so that he would see it and be calm because he was very stressed.And then of course I memorized those sentences and so I said them anyway.It can't be easy to be her parents XD
Funny, thanks. She's clearly very strong willed.
Some people think Donald Trump is mentally ill. Would being mentally ill reduce his credibility?Cheers
DiC: with the *type* of mental illness he may have, yes. People on the autism spectrum, and that includes Asperger's, often have trouble lying. People who are narcissistic often have little problem lying.
David, you elided my question to you."Would being mentally ill reduce his credibility?"No, because he's an obvious liar who has no credibility to start with. (See Marco just above.)
Greta is giving voice to the generation who will be most impacted by this issue. Why shouldn't they have a platform? Why should we ignore them?
IMHO we should ignore Greta because she has no relevant knowledge. How fast is the planet warming? How fast is the ocean rising? How urgent is it to act? What are the strengths and weaknesses of the various models? What actions make sense? Should we focus on adaptation rather than mitigation? Should we pursue geo-engineering? Is it possible to get the entire world to cooperate so atmospheric CO2 stops rising? What is the cost of each possible actions? What damage will each of the possible actions cause? What is the risk of various mitigation ideas?Greta has nothing to contribute to these vital questions. Cheers
DiC, we already have answers to (most of) these questions from the IPCC reports and the scientific literature. Thunberg also points this out. She wants us, the adults, to finally listen to those answers. Her contribution to those vital questions is to make clear we, the adults, are the ones who right now make the decisions that determine how the world of our children will look like.
Actually, Marco, the IPCC doesn't provide answers regarding what we should do -- the practicality, costs, benefits, and risks of various conceivable options. E.g., IMHO the international meetings have not been effective and will not be effective. I'm not sure anything will be effective. The world could go on a crash program to build many thousands of nuclear power plants, but I don't think they're going to do that. Perhaps there is some geo-engineering approach, but such an approach doesn't exist today. And, geo-engineering would be terribly risky. I am a pessimist. I think atmospheric CO2 will continue to rise. Our best bet may be adaptation, because we know how to do that. That is, technology for dikes and improved infrastructure exists.Cheers
DiC, the IPCC reports provide answers on what we *could* do, including cost-benefits analyses. But the IPCC cannot make anyone do anything.Adaptation will include migration - it, in fact, is already taking place. Won't be possible everywhere, however, unless the world "adapts" by opening all borders. Won't happen either.Plenty of other necessary adaptations are also needed. The question really is how far we can go with adapting.
David in Cal said..."Greta has nothing to contribute to these vital questions."She's not a scientist -- she says *listen* to the scientists. She's clearly a very smart young women. You are determined to dismiss her by any means necessary. I think there's a relation.
DiC, there is plenty written about what we might do -- "practicality, costs, benefits, and risks of various conceivable options."The entire WGII of the 5AR is about "Impacts, Adaptation and Vulnerability." Chapter 3 of the WG3 is titled "Social, Economic, and Ethical Concepts and Methods." Chapter 6 is "Assessing Transformation Pathways." A lack of knowledge isn't what's causing Trump to dismiss climate change. And no amount of work will tell us what we *should* do, because it's not just about the science & economics, it's about our values. Should we pay for sea walls around Norfolk, VA or abandon the city and move it inland? That's about more than economics. What about Miami? What about the lobster industry in Maine, suffering from warmer waters? What about the Great Barrier Reef -- is its value economic only, or more than economic? How do you put a price tag on the value of an ecosystem? We have lots of knowledge, and can get more if that's what it takes. But that isn't what's holding us back. We ultimately have to make decisions based on values as well, and we have to do it with inevitable uncertainties in the science.
So, look at this: now it's Adam Schiff who's mentally ill for saying things some Trumpster didn't like."Tucker Carlson: Adam Schiff Is ‘Clearly, Demonstrably Mentally Ill’," The Daily Beast 9/26/19.https://www.thedailybeast.com/fox-news-tucker-carlson-says-adam-schiff-is-clearly-demonstrably-mentally-illAnd there's that book by Michael Savage, "Liberalism Is a Mental Disorder."https://www.amazon.com/Liberalism-Mental-Disorder-Michael-Savage/dp/1595550437Such arguments come about when there's no rational case to be made. I think that's what people are also doing with Greta Thunberg.
I don't like accusations of mental illness and I don't think Schiff is mentally ill. However, David, you misrepresented Carlson's complaint. Schiff did something odd. On national TV he apparently quoted President Trump saying awful things. When it was pointed out that Trump hadn't said these things, Schiff excused his misstatements as "parody".Cheers
Doing something "odd" doesn't mean a person is mentally ill.If you don't like accusations of mental illness, why did you stress them w.r.t. Thunberg??
In her case it wasn't an accusation. It was a fact. I was quoting her statement.I dislike the all too common accusation of mental illness, because it's generally not soundly based. Laypeople can't diagnose mental illness. Even psychiatrists can't diagnose mental illness in people they haven't had considerable contact with.
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@David in Cal "Should we really ignore a climate expert like Willie Soon but pay attention to a scientifically ignorant child who said she has been "diagnosed with Asperger syndrome, OCD, and selective mutism".Erm, why should her medical conditions factor into this? None of these conditions impair someone's critical thinking nor reduce their intelligence (in fact it's sometimes the opposite in the case of Asperger's), so why should these things make someone less credible?Seriously, Just because someone suffers from some sort of mental health condition, that should not automatically make their opinion instantly less credible or worthwhile on account of that, as you imply here. That is just pure bigotry to be honest, as well as hugely ignorant.
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