Wow. This is unhinged. I’m literally looking at our voter registration database on my other screen. Right now.
— Stephen Richer—Maricopa Cnty Recorder (prsnl acct) (@stephen_richer) May 15, 2021
We can’t indulge these insane lies any longer. As a party. As a state. As a country.
This is as readily falsifiable as 2+2=5. If we don’t call this out... pic.twitter.com/5tDy1wsZg6
PS:
I absolutely ππππ this picture πΈπ pic.twitter.com/t1k8qYhS9Q
— Jake Lobin (@JakeLobin) May 16, 2021
50 comments:
It makes no difference how many times local Republican election officials say that Trump is lying, still the majority of Republicans choose to believe a known pathological liar.
Off Topic, but it looks like Canada is about to overtake USA and UK for first dose of the Vaccine.
USA and UK still have a healthy lead for second dose, but may have hit a wall on first.
Logical.
If you are willing to take the first vaccine, you'll be willing to take the second. If you won't take the first, you won't take the second.
Ultimately the limit you hit with the first dose will limit the second dose as well.
You can't have more people taking the second dose than the first. π
Trump's statement is of course a wild exaggeration. OTOH the statement that there was definitely no substantial fraud is also a wild exaggeration. Nobody really knows how much election fraud was committed by Republicans or how much fraud was committed by Democrats. It's really hard to prove a negative. Many Democrats believe this incorrect statement, just as many Republicans believe Trump's false statement.
Cheers
David, those in charge of running elections are constantly checking and cross-checking for fraud while running elections and counting the votes. If not fraud is found, why continue to say we just don't know?
By your logic we can claim there is a teapot orbiting the Sun somewhere between Earth and Mars, because it's not falsifiable. (Bertrand Russell's argument)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot
Where does the burden of proof lie?
And by the way you said SUBSTANTIAL fraud. Why is there no proof of that?
Why does the Republican party tolerate as its leader someone who lies constantly??
OTOH the statement that there was definitely no substantial fraud is also a wild exaggeration...Many Democrats believe this incorrect statement, just as many Republicans believe Trump's false statement.
There is absolutely no comparison between the two. Especially as you have to exaggerate what Democrats believe to try and make you're comparison credible. Most people who are not part of the Trump cult say there is no evidence that there was enough fraud to change the result. It's not just Democrats who say that it's members of Trump's WH staff and Republican election officials from the states where the fraud is alleged to have occurred.
So the comparison is between one side who are rightly sceptical of extraordinary claims from a pathological liar and those who appear to have lost contact with reality.
J.D. there is no definite evidence of substantial fraud, but there are some indications suggesting the possibility.
1. The unusual pattern of votes arriving. At one point during the vote count, I recall telling my wife that if the majorities held, Trump would be the winner. A number of key states turned around thanks to late-arriving ballots.
2. The Republicans gained seats in the House. That's unusual for the losing Presidential candidate.
3. The Democrats resistance to campaign checking and auditing.
4. The hasty adoption of absentee voting procedures in some states, possibly without necessary safeguards.
IMO these things justify doing campaign audits and investigations. Of course Biden will remain as President, no matter what the audits show. However, audits might cause future elections to be more secure and more widely accepted.
Cheers
David, your #1 was predicted beforehand and completely expected by all astute observers.
"At one point during the vote count, I recall telling my wife that if the majorities held, Trump would be the winner".
Of course he would have been the winner if the majority held but everyone including Trump knew that it was a strong possibility that the initial counting would favor Trump. It's why he kept saying he didn't want all the votes counted.
"The Republicans gained seats in the House. That's unusual for the losing Presidential candidate".
That doesn't come close to being evidence of fraud. That's a tactic that conspiracy theorists use and it's a tactic that's been widely used by Trump's supporters. For instance saying of course there was fraud we all seen them pulling hidden votes from under a table. You pushed that same story yourself. You yourself pushed that story.
I witnessed the same thing online after the Boston bombing where conspiracy nuts studied news reports looking for "clues" that it was a false flag operation.
"The Democrats resistance to campaign checking and auditing."
And yet when the Republicans did their level best to prevent witnesses being called when Trump was impeached you still thought it was all a hoax. Holding people in power accountable for shady dealings is essential to maintain a healthy democracy. Never ending audits of election results because a narcissist cant accept the result can only harm the democratic process.
About #3: there have been two audits in Maricopa County, Arizona, that confirmed the election results. Clearly audits don’t matter to you or the Trump cult.
David in Cal
1) For various reasons Democrats are more likely to use absentee voting.
This distorts the %. Compared with the final result, in person votes give a relatively higher % for the Republicans. Absentee votes give a relatively higher % for Democrats.
Since in-person votes are counted first, the early numbers flatter the Republican candidate. This then decreases once the absentee votes are counted.
In a clearly Republican or Democrat state this makes no difference.
In a marginal state the difference between in-person and absentee voting was enough to give Trump an early lead and a final defeat.
2) Is this unusual? IIRC it is normal for the White House and Congress to be controlled by different parties.
3) An excellent idea. Let's audit every state, Republican and Democrat! Let's raise taxes to pay for it. Of course, you can't trust the auditors, so each audit should be audited, and the audit of each audit should be audited.
4) A response to the pandemic. Any suggestion that Republicans might oppose absentee ballots as a ploy to make it harder for Democrats to vote is,of course, absurd.
J.D. and EM - you both make good points. However, I still think it's better to fully check. We might learn something.
Note that Trump's false statement has a purpose: It's designed to promote auditing the results. The Democrats' false statement also has a purpose: It's designed to discourage auditing the results. I see no harm in checking. Honest elections are very important.
Cheers
David, there have already been two audits of the Maricopa County election results.
What is Trump's problem with them that he needs another?
And why should anyone react to his utter lie about the deletion of the database there?
Why does any Republican continue to follow such a bald-faced liar? What is wrong with Republicans??
David, what really bothers me is that you don't even understand what your party is doing.
The Maricopa County event isn't about auditing the results. It's so amateurish as to be laughable. It's to create the ILLUSION there may be something wrong with the voting, to JUSTIFY legislation to suppress votes, to ensure Republican victories. Because Republicans know they can no longer win given current demographic trends.
Republicans are now a minority party with a minority voter base. Suppressing votes is their only hope. That's what ALL OF THIS is about.
David - the Maricopa County audit would be more professional if the Dems joined in the process and supported it. Ditto for other states. As I see it, the bottom line is: Republicans want to audit the election. Dems oppose auditing the election.
Your claim, based on no facts, that the purpose of the audit is vote suppression is actually just a far-fetched argument to oppose the audit. Checking election integrity is a reasonable thing to do. It's hard to find good arguments against it, but Dems keep trying. Are they afraid that the audit will find problems?
Cheers
Seems they've hired a group (code ninjas!) that had already come to the right conclusion (FRAUD! FRAUD! FRAUD! FRAUD! FRAUD!) even before they looked at a single ballot - before they were even hired in fact! That's very efficient.
It's hard to find good arguments against it, but Dems keep trying. Are they afraid that the audit will find problems?
Republicans are opposed to it and are saying it's a farce that's making a fool out of them. But by all means continue to peddle evidence free nonsense just like any other conspiracy theorist. Of course it could be you're just trolling.
David in Cal
Are you sure this is a good idea?
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/elections/company-conducting-arizona-gop-s-election-audit-backtracks-deleted-database-n1267900
An audit so incompetently done is not going to be taken seriously, whatever the result.
EM - I'm afraid you're right. In fact, I suspect that no audit would change many minds. Conservatives would continue to believe the election was unfair; liberals would continue to believe it was fair.
Cheers
David in Cal
There's a longer term problem. Having told their base that elections are unfair, how are the Republican Party going to turn out the vote in 2022 and 2024?
According to Trump: "There is nothing more corrupt than an investigation in search of a crime. But make no mistake. That is exactly what is happening here."
Unrelated of course. Projecting maybe.
"I watched the GOP’s Arizona election audit. It was worse than you think; Cyber Ninjas is hunting for bamboo fibers and cheese dust."
Jennifer Morrell, WaPo 5/19/21
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/05/19/gop-arizona-election-audit/
David in Cal wrote:
Conservatives would continue to believe the election was unfair
But why?
David in Cal said...
Checking election integrity is a reasonable thing to do.
Why do you think that's what's happening here? There have been so many arguments that what's taking place with the "Cyber Ninjas" is ridiculous that it won't solve settle anything. It's utterly amateurish.
David, what was wrong with the first two audits already conducted?
David, why do you keep avoiding this simple question: why do Republicans follow a liar?
"why do Republicans follow a liar? "
To be fair, more and more of them are moving on to post-Trump Republicanism.
https://www.bbc.co.uk
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-57180679
OK David, I see you refuse to answer my question about why Republicans follow a liar. Or why you do.
I think there is something extremely sick among anyone who does. There is something extremely rotten and evil in the current Republican party that is profoundly un-American, un-democratic and inhumane.
It's terrifying that none of you see this. You are all marching this country to totalitarianism. It is no different than what was taking place in Germany in the early 1930s. No different at all.
You are all cowards. You are all stupid. You are all arrogant. You are all dangerous. Yes, you are all fascists. This country hasn't been in as much peril since the Civil War.
David - I voted for Trump because I thought his policies would work better than Biden's. So far, Biden has not been as bad as I expected, but his policies are working worse than Trump's were IMO. E.g., high gas prices and the mess of illegal immigrants at the border are new problem caused by Biden's policies.
I acknowledge that Trump lies and exaggerates. I wish you would acknowledge that Democrats also lie. Here are some easily checked lies:
1. Trump said that white supremacists and Nazis were good people. You can find Trump's quote yourself and see that Trump explicitly excluded them from his description of "some good people.'
2. Trump recommended injecting bleach. You and I went over this one and you refused the acknowledge the clear meaning of Trump's overall comments.
3. Women earn 75% of what men do for the same work. You can find the study this fallacious statement is based on. It shows a difference of around 5% for comparable work.
4. Biden claimed he was unaware of his son's huge income from that corrupt Ukrainian energy company. That simply doesn't pass the smell test.
I could find more Democrat lies, but that's not my point. My point is your ability to see the lies on your side. I suspect that you don't want to see that liberal media sometimes lie, as do conservative media. E.g., here's a list of over 150 false statements made by the media about Trump https://sharylattkisson.com/2021/04/50-media-mistakes-in-the-trump-era-the-definitive-list/
Cheers
Gas prices started rising last year under Trump and most the reasons for the continued rise are outside Biden's control.
1) Charlottesville was organized by neo nazis. It was made clear in the promotion of it that it was aimed at people with those views. One Nazi sympathizer murdered a woman and several others were critically injured. If you read all of Trump's comments he went out of his way to not criticize the far right protesters and the organizers themselves acknowledged that. It was only under pressure that he condemned neo nazis. Given that someone was murdered by the attendees it should have been easy to condemn them from the start.
There was a startling difference between his reaction to the murder in Charlottesville to when someone on the far right was murdered in Portland.
Trump recommended injecting bleach. You and I went over this one and you refused the acknowledge the clear meaning of Trump's overall comments.
Trump made out that his comments were meant to be sarcasm aimed at the press. Is that the clear meaning you are referring to?
4. Biden claimed he was unaware of his son's huge income from that corrupt Ukrainian energy company. That simply doesn't pass the smell test.
I can't remember Biden saying that and a Google search found nothing but anyway your "smell test" seems to become hyperactive when dealing with anything to do with Democrats but non existent regarding the Republicans and Trump family.
J.D. -- will you acknowledge that Democrats sometimes lie and that the media you follow sometimes reports things that are false?
cheers
Of course I will acknowledge that politicians on both sides lie and that almost all media is biased to one or other of the two main parties. I'm not the one who posts obviously false stories from non credible sources though.
Will you acknowledge that there is no equivalency between the accuracy of Republican supporting media and Democrat supporting media? There might have been years ago but there isn't any more.
Compare for instance Fox News to CNN. Yes CNN is biased. I can't imagine though CNN saying during a pandemic that it's only the flu or pushing unproven "cures". Nor can I imagine them pushing the dangerous lie that an election was stolen by widespread fraud and interviewing people with incredible stories of counterfeit votes being delivered in the night.
As for politicians lying, I've been disappointed by some of the untruths Biden has said since the election but he's not in the same league as Trump. Trump can't help lying and what's more most Republican politicians know he is lying, including his lies about the election. The right wing media has created a monster. They've radicalized millions of Americans who are now like members of a cult who won't tolerate anything that contradicts what the dear leader says.
Some tells that Trump's lying:
1) He'll say "Believe me". As in:
"believe me – and I’ll build them very inexpensively. I will build a great, great wall on our southern border, and I will make Mexico pay for that wall. Mark my words."
or
"I know more about ISIS than the generals do. Believe me."
2) He'll say "Most of you agree with this" as in:
"It turns out I'm the most, and I think most of you would agree with this, I'm the most transparent President in the history of the country."
or
"I think you’ll agree that I said I think Brexit will happen."
3) He'll relate a story where somebody calls him 'sir'. As in this gem where he deflates China's spend by half to make his spend look good:
“I went to (Agriculture Secretary) Sonny Perdue,” Trump said, “and I said, ‘Sonny, how much has China spent, let’s say, in the – in just about the biggest year?’ He said, ‘16 billion dollars, sir.’ I said, ‘Here’s what I’m doing. I’m giving our farmers $16 billion out of the tariffs.’”
or this gem about a bill passed in 2014 that Trump wants to take credit for:
“I said, ‘I have the greatest idea. We’re going to do this. If a veteran has to wait, we’re going to send them to a private doctor. We’ll pay the bill.’ What a genius – I said, I said, how good is that? They said, ‘Sir, we’ve been trying to get it passed for 44 years.’”
No other politician of either party lies like Trump lies. It's not even close. He lies even when everyone knows he's lying, like his continual claim that his health care plan was two weeks away from being released. It's a pathological sickness. Republicans worship a man who is clearly mentally ill. I truly hope Trump has a serious health problem or dies before the 2024 election -- it just may save the country.
J.D. - You believe CNN is a lot more accurate than Fox News. Can you prove that to me?
I don't watch Fox News or CNN. I can't compare their accuracy based on my own observations. I don't trust the opinions of others. Quoting another liberal would not be proof. Nor would quoting a conservative prove that Fox News is more accurate than CNN.
So, how can you convince me that CNN is a lot more accurate than Fox News?
Cheers
David - I agree that Trump tells many falsehoods and many exaggerations. However, IMO Trump's many lies and exaggerations are not at all pathological. He's doing something that's alien to logical numbers people like you and me. His very sane reason for saying something is that his statement will help him achieve a particular goal.
This practice is far from admirable, but it actually works.
Cheers
DiC: "how can you convince me that CNN is a lot more accurate than Fox News?"
This study shows Fox and Kos are extremely biased, CNN not.
Quantifying Media Bias through Crowdsourced Content Analysis: https://www8.gsb.columbia.edu/media/sites/media/files/JustinRaoMediaBias.pdf
IMHO CNN (on TV) is garbage. They invite ideologues from both sides to talk past each other. It's not meant to elucidate. It's meant to infuriate.
David in Cal wrote:
He's doing something that's alien to logical numbers people like you and me. His very sane reason for saying something is that his statement will help him achieve a particular goal.
This practice is far from admirable, but it actually works.
OMG, you have perfectly illustrated the moral rot that has set into the Republican party.
The ends justify the means. You have no ethics, all that matters is what works.
This is EXACTLY the problem.
DA: "you have perfectly illustrated the moral rot that has set into the Republican party."
It's all the worse if they are happily discarding truth for ideology. An ideology is worthless that isn't grounded in reality.
I don't watch Fox News or CNN. I can't compare their accuracy based on my own observations.
I hardly watch them either but when any news source steps over the line its generally widely discussed and trends online etc. I gave you a couple of examples of things that FN has done that were disgusting. The one example I gave was the constant misinformation they peddled during the pandemic which put their viewers lives at risk. You didn't have to watch them to know they did this. I'm not aware of anything from the liberal mainstream media that comes close to that. The conservative media's lies also led to the insurrection which apart from anything else will result in some of those who believed their lies spending years in prison. One young woman also lost her life storming the capitol because of their propaganda.
I don't trust the opinions of others.
Considering you have often linked to articles from conservative sources in support of Trump's lies and claimed they are "fully credible" I think that you are quite possibly kidding yourself there.
Qanon shaman's lawyer suggests these people "brainwashed by Trump’s propaganda" are not bad people, "A lot of these defendants … they’re all f—ing short-bus people. These are people with brain damage. They’re f—ing r—–ed, they’re on the goddamn spectrum.”
Alternatively they are complicit.
Keep in mind, some of these folks implicated in Jan 6 are Republican law makers.
Yes... the QAnon Shaman's lawyer said,
“But they’re our brothers, our sisters, our neighbors, our coworkers — they’re part of our country. These aren’t bad people, they don’t have prior criminal history. ... They were subjected to four-plus years of goddamn propaganda the likes of which the world has not seen since [expletive] Hitler,” he continued.
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/may/18/attorney-qanon-shaman-rips-capitol-rioters-compare/
Tweeted David's extraordinary comment at
https://twitter.com/davidappell/status/1396339752215797775
It's important to note that this goes well beyond the few hundred that stormed the capital. The action is still being widely supported by republican law makers.
According to a recent Reuters-Ipsos poll, ~60% of GOP voters believe that the 2020 election “was stolen” and roughly half of Republicans think the attack was either a) a nonviolent protest or b) the work of left-wing activists hell-bent on “trying to make Trump look bad.”
DiC may be right that Trump lies for personal benefit and not due to compulsion. Nevertheless, there is something deeply broken with ~1/4 of the country that they remain so credulous.
Post a Comment