Tuesday, April 13, 2021

Right- vs Left-Wing US Domestic Terrorism

The Washington Post has an interesting/disturbing article on domestic terrorism trends in the US, and who's responsible. The number of incidents are up sharply in the last five years, and it's almost entirely from the extreme right-wing: 




I'm not going to try to characterize where these terrorists come from, by ideology -- they're dangerous, perhaps mentally ill men, very likely white, who for some god-forsaken reason have access to weapons soldiers carry into war zones. Republicans are morally responsible for them, for their refusal to pass sensible gun regulations, and those who vote against those regulations all have serious blood on their hands and their souls. (I wish I believed in souls, it would be useful here, but I don't.) 

I'm not convinced the easy access to guns in America -- serious guns -- and the kind of trend above, and the Republican's push into fascism in the face of their terror of losing power due to demographic trends -- isn't going to lead to a dissolution (viz. crackup) of the U.S. in a few decades time, maybe even sooner. Add climate change and income inequality and (despite Biden) the lack of an adequate social net and affordable and universal healthcare system, and I'll even throw in the potential failures of the Ogallala and California Valley Aquifers and snowpack failures and early melt leading to water shortages in the Colorado River and Pacific Northwest...well, the world usually finds a way to squeak by. But not always, not without some significant and lurching change. 

46 comments:

Thomas said...

It seems California has given up on keeping the Salton sea, letting it dry up and release its toxic dust to the surrounding areas.A sign of times to come?

Entropic man said...

Thomas

Looks like a no-win situation. Three possibilities.

1)The only freshwater source to refill the Salton Sea is the Colorado River. That is already in deficit as water from the river is being used faster than Lake Mead can be replenished. The political cost of the ensuing water war would be enormous.

2)Pump in salt water, a major and costly engineering project which would end up making the Sea even more saline. You would have to pump indefinitely because if you stopped pumping you would be even worse off.

3) Do nothing. Let the Sea dry out and spread toxic dust over California. Nobody's fault.🙄

I'm not surprised the California state government has chosen the easy option.

David in Cal said...

Sorry, I do not trust WaPo's definition of left wing terrorism. There have been an enormous number of violent, Antifa-led riots in Portland and other cities. Many BLM demonstrations have turned into riots. There were many riots in Minneapolis after the shooting of black person, including one a couple of days ago. IMO all these events have the effect of terrorizing people in that neighborhood. I would count each of them as an act of domestic, left-wing terrorism. For some reason, national media tends to downplay or ignore these riots. I suspect that WaPo is not including all of them in its count.

Cheers

David in Cal said...

I visited the Salton Sea 10 or 15 years ago. It's sad. One can see that it was once larger. It once had some sort of facilities at points on the shore. Now, it's nothing.

Cheers

David Appell said...

David in Cal wrote:
There have been an enormous number of violent, Antifa-led riots in Portland and other cities

You keep claiming this, we keep asking you for evidence, and you are silent every time.

So you have a lot less credibility than the Washington Post.

David Appell said...

By the way, if you'd read the article you'd see that the data come from the Center for Strategic and International Studies. WaPo just analyzed it. Get your facts straight first before making accusations if you expect to have any credibility whatsoever.

David in Cal said...

David - proof of an enormous number of riots would require an enormous number of links. Here's a CBS News report confirming 2 very recent riots in Minneapolis https://www.cbsnews.com/live-updates/daunte-wright-killed-police-brooklyn-center-minnesota-protests-second-night/

Here's a link to attempted mass murder by some rioters last Saturday Portland, OR
https://katu.com/news/local/fires-set-at-portland-ice-building-no-arrests-made-police-say

I call this attempted murder because setting fire to an occupied building could result in deaths. BTW not a single arrest was made after this arson.

Cheers

David Appell said...

Arson isn't murder, it's arson.

David in Cal said...

Evidently more riots are expected

It's hard to overstate how much different downtown Minneapolis looks now than before the trial started. Many buildings near the government center have their windows boarded up. Government buildings are especially fortified, with concrete barriers and tall fences that are topped with barbed wire. Some streets are closed down completely. Behind the fences, members of the National Guard and their armored vehicles are visible.

https://www.npr.org/sections/trial-over-killing-of-george-floyd/2021/04/12/985803829/jurors-in-chauvin-trial-have-security-escort-are-partially-sequestered

Arson can be murder if someone burns to death in the fire set by the arsonist.

Cheers

David Appell said...

David in Cal wrote:
proof of an enormous number of riots would require an enormous number of links.

Why don't you go see how the data were gathered and recorded, instead of continuing to ignorantly spout off again, of which you have made a specialty in the last few months.

David in Cal said...

More reports of riots in Portland

Instead of mass mobilizations focused on disrupting city streets and educating the public, recent protests draw a few dozen people who have regularly engaged in vandalism against such disparate targets as a Democratic Party office, the Oregon Historical Society and the Mexican consulate.

Their most recent action: a Friday protest that ended in vandalism to 27 businesses in the city, ranging from a smoke shop and food carts to a bank branch and an insurance company.

https://www.opb.org/article/2020/11/23/portland-protest-racial-justice-oregon-black-lives-matter/

Cheers

David in Cal said...

Another riot organized by the left

Breaking: Bodycam Video Of A Chicago PD Officer Fatally Shooting The 13-year-old Adam Toledo Was Just Released – BLM Starts Riots Before The Video Was Released

https://www.usasupreme.com/breaking-bodycam-video-of-a-chicago-pd-officer-fatally-shooting-the-13-year-old-adam-toledo-was-just-released-blm-starts-riots-before-the-video-was-released/

David - these may seem repetitive, but you challenged me to show that the left has perpetrated an enormous number of riots.

Cheers

Layzej said...

Hopefully you can distinguish between vandalism and terrorism? If not, maybe read the methodology of the report in question?

Entropic man said...

Another mass shooting in the US.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-56770200

The UK has tight gun laws and we get about one mass shooting a decade.

With five times our population the USA might be expected to suffer one mass shooting every two years.In fact you've had 147 mass shootings this year. That is more than one a day!

Time to get your act together.

Entropic man said...

Look at it another way.

Someone in the US is at least 720 times more likely to go out one day and start killing people than someone in the UK.

What makes people in the US so likely to go murderous insane? Something in your society is badly amiss.

David in Cal said...

Layzej - Great question about distinguishing between vandalism and terrorism. I note that the article uses the term "extremist attacks" as a synonym of terrorism I would love to read the methodology. I didn't see a link to it. If you or David can provide one, I promise to read it carefully.

IMO the words "terrorism" and "extremist" are not well-defined.

Cheers

Entropic man said...

It's easy.

If you agree with their aims they are freedom fighters.

If you disagree with their aims they are terrorists.

If you agree with their aims they are legitimate protestors.

If you disagree with their aims they are rioters and vandals.

Layzej said...

This report focuses on terrorism—not other issues, such as hate crimes, protests, riots, or broader civil unrest. Terrorism is the deliberate use—or threat—of violence by non-state actors in order to achieve political goals and create a broad psychological impact.

Violence and the threat of violence are important components of terrorism.

Layzej said...

For example:

In mid-January 2020, six members of The Base, a transnational white supremacist group, were arrested in Georgia and Maryland and charged with plotting terrorist attacks.

On May 8, the FBI arrested anti-government extremist Christian Stanley Ferguson in Cleveland, Ohio, who was planning to ambush and execute federal law enforcement officers and then start an uprising. Ferguson also posted violent messages on the digital distribution platform Discord.

In one of three attacks in 2020 linked to the online “manosphere,” Armando Hernandez, Jr. was arrested in Glendale, Arizona, after a shooting spree targeting couples at the Westgate Entertainment District that injured three individuals.

It's not "someone tagged a wall"

David in Cal said...

Layzej - How about when when BLM or ANTIFA commits or threatens violence in order to motivate police not to shoot blacks, or in order to persuade jurisdictions to bring criminal charges against policemen who shoot blacks. Sometimes violent demonstrations have other political purposes, especially on college campuses. Those cases would seem to fulfills the definition of "the deliberate use—or threat—of violence by non-state actors in order to achieve political goals and create a broad psychological impact."

IMO these actions should be counted as terrorist acts, but I suspect they aren't.

Cheers

David Appell said...

David in Cal said...
Arson can be murder if someone burns to death in the fire set by the arsonist.

But David, you were trying to claim that arson is murder before the murder happened. Come on. And now you're trying to tally riots that might happen.

Stick to the facts.

David in Cal said...

David - I claimed setting fire to an occupied building was attempted murder.

I included the "threat" of riots, because the definition supplied by Layzej included the "threat of violence."

BTW would you not agree that the threat of violence hangs over the Chauvin trial?

Cheers

Layzej said...

Has someone threatened violence, or do you just have the feels?

J. D. said...

I included the "threat" of riots, because the definition supplied by Layzej included the "threat of violence."

How many people were threatened with violence because of Trump's big lie about the election being rigged? Many of whom were just doing their job. Not to mention the insurrection which was a direct result of Trump's lies. Those lies were supported by many Republican politicians some of them frightened by the threat of violence also but many were doing it to further their own careers. These are people who are elected to serve the people and should be held to a higher standard.

David Appell said...

David, and whom was the murderer attempted?

David in Cal said...

David - did you leave a word out of you last comment? I cannot quite understand it.

Layzej - Yes, I have seen links to people explicitly threatening violence if Chauvin is acquitted.

J.D. - I would certainly classify the Capital riot as a instance of terrorism.

Cheers

Layzej said...

Who made the threats? Who was threatened?

David in Cal said...

Layzej - I don't remember. Some blog posted a link to the threatener around a week ago.

Cheers

Layzej said...

Did you report it to the FBI? This was terrorism right?

Layzej said...

I hope you can distinguish between a credible threat of violence: "On June 6, local police arrested Brandon Moore in Coos Bay, Oregon, after he threatened protesters with a handgun."

or "On October 8, 2020, the U.S. Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) announced the arrests of 13 men suspected of orchestrating a domestic terror plot to kidnap Gretchen Whitmer, the Governor of Michigan, and otherwise violently overthrow the state government."

and "somebody said something mean on the internet."

David Appell said...

Hi David. Yes, I think I did leave a word or two out of my last comment. You wrote:

David - I claimed setting fire to an occupied building was attempted murder.

On whom was the murder attempted? Who specifically was the intended victim? "Murder" is a specific crime, not just the intention to do harm of a general sort....

David in Cal said...

Portland protesters light fires, smash downtown windows; police declare riot
April 16, 2021

...Police declared the demonstration a riot late Friday, marking the third time in five days the bureau had made such an announcement.


https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2021/04/protesters-shatter-downtown-portland-windows-police-declare-riot.html

The question is whether these three riots were counted as 3 acts of terrorism. I think they should be.

Cheers

David Appell said...

The question is whether these three riots were counted as 3 acts of terrorism. I think they should be.

What is the definition of terrorism?

David Appell said...

Merriam Webster:

terrorism noun
ter·​ror·​ism | \ ˈter-É™r-ËŒi-zÉ™m \
Definition of terrorism
: the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/terrorism

Layzej said...

"The question is whether these three riots were counted as 3 acts of terrorism. I think they should be."

And? Are they? Seems to me your entire gripe with this survey rests on that question - and you aren't even sure about the answer.

David in Cal said...

Layzej - I don't know WAPo's source, but I am fairly sure that these riots are not being counted as terrorism, because these riots are so common. If they were counted as left wing terrorism, then left wing terrorism would outnumber right wing terrorism.

Cheers

David in Cal said...

David - Setting fire to an occupied building threatens the lives of these occupants

Layzej - Rep Maxine Waters threatened street violence if Chauvin was acquitted. This seems to me to be a threat of terror in order to coerce. https://www.foxnews.com/politics/derek-chauvin-defense-maxine-waters-comments-trial

In Waters's defense, her threat wasn't precisely explicit. IMO the words "get more active, we've got to get more confrontational," and "make sure that they know that we mean business" would be understood by most to be a call for something beyond a peaceful demonstration.

Cheers

David in Cal said...

Sorry, forgot the link
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/derek-chauvin-defense-maxine-waters-comments-trial

David Appell said...

David, why don’t you finally explain why a riot is terrorism, a fire is terrorism, speech is terrorism, and presumably a sneeze by a BLM marcher is terrorism.

Explain *something* instead of just ranting.

David in Cal said...

David - I hate to waste time arguing semantics, but... We had two definitions of "terrorism" present on this thread.

1. Terrorism is the deliberate use—or threat—of violence by non-state actors in order to achieve political goals and create a broad psychological impact. Violence and the threat of violence are important components of terrorism.

2. the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion

#2 is a bit circular, defining "terrorism" in terms of "terror". Also #2 unclear about whether a threat of violence could be called "terror".

#1 is very broad. I think it covers all the riots by both left and right. They all involve violence and they all have political goals.

Cheers

Layzej said...

You think Maxine Waters is a terrorist???

David in Cal said...

Layzej - Good question. I think her comments fulfilled definition 1 above. She arguably threatened violence. She had political goals, namely, convicting Chauvin and fighting against the killing of blacks by police. What do you think?

Cheers

Layzej said...

I think you're crazy.

David in Cal said...

Layzej - I might be wrong, but my opinion is shared by super-lawyer Alan Dershowitz

Dershowitz: Maxine Waters’ Tactics Similar to Those Used by Ku Klux Klan
BY ZACHARY STIEBER April 20, 2021 Updated: April 20, 2021

Rep. Maxine Waters (D-Calif.) was clearly trying to influence the jury in the Derek Chauvin trial when she traveled to Minnesota and said Chauvin should be found guilty, Harvard law professor Alan Dershowitz charged on Tuesday.

“Her message was clearly intended to get to the jury—‘If you will acquit or if you find the charge less than murder, we will burn down your buildings. We will burn down your businesses. We will attack you. We will do what happened to the witness—blood on their door,’” he said during an appearance on Newsmax, referring to how the former home of defense expert Barry Brodd was recently vandalized.

“This was an attempt to intimidate the jury. It’s borrowed precisely from the Ku Klux Klan of the 1930s and 1920s when the Klan would march outside of courthouses and threatened all kinds of reprisals if the jury ever dared convict a white person or acquit a black person. And so, efforts to intimidate a jury should result in a mistrial with the judge, of course, wouldn’t grant a mistrial because then he’d be responsible for the riots that would ensue, even though it was Waters who was responsible,” Dershowitz added.

Waters told a crowd in Brooklyn Center, just outside of Minneapolis, over the weekend that they should “get more confrontational” if a guilty verdict isn’t handed down.

“We’re looking for a guilty verdict and we’re looking to see if all of the talk that took place and has been taking place after they saw what happened to George Floyd,” she also said. “If nothing does not happen [sic], then we know that we got to not only stay in the street but we have got to fight for justice.

https://www.theepochtimes.com/mkt_breakingnews/dershowitz-maxine-waters-tactics-similar-to-those-used-by-ku-klux-klan_3783973.html?utm_source=newsnoe&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=breaking-2021-04-20-2&mktids=42eae8a9bef817222e957a990cb80b1c&est=vVg%2FkedSEYVgzBUoyrvr%2BneGOl3eqYWgixsQnZHbAr9eXUGa5IS%2BrhV6cAmpgDU5

P.S. Layzej I appreci8eate your opinion. I would also appreciate your reasoning.

Cheers

David Appell said...

The Epoch Times is Filth. Capital F. I'm simply going to ignore it, and David, I'm very close to ignoring you altogether.

Layzej said...

DiC on trump summoning supporters to "wild" protest at the capitol, and asking them to "fight" to prevent confirmation of the next president: "The president didn’t mention violence on Wednesday, much less provoke or incite it."

DiC on someone from the other side asking supporters to "stay on the street" and "get more confrontational": She is literally a terrorist.

You are ridiculous.