I feel sorry for this woman. However after over 50 years of enormous social welfare spending, I don't feel guilty for her situation.I suspect that the majority of voters will feel as I do, so her rant will help Trump.Cheers
Is that how you see this, David, someone pouring out their flaming heart either helps Trump or it doesn't? Why do you think you're in the majority?"76 percent of Americans — including 71 percent of white people — called racism and discrimination “a big problem” in the United States."https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/05/us/politics/polling-george-floyd-protests-racism.html"57 percent of Americans said demonstrators’ anger was fully justified, and another 21 percent called it somewhat justified."https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/05/us/politics/polling-george-floyd-protests-racism.html"Sixty-four percent of respondents said they were sympathetic to the protests that have erupted across the nation, while 27 percent said they were not and 9 percent said they were unsure, according to the poll. "More than 55 percent of those surveyed said they disapprove of the president’s response to the protests, including 40 percent who said they strongly disapproved. The percentage who approved, about 33 percent, was lower than the number of those who approved of the job Trump is doing in general."https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign-polls/500867-poll-majority-sympathetic-to-protesters-disapprove-of-trumps-response"Biden takes 14-point lead over Trump in CNN poll as protests shake U.S."https://www.marketwatch.com/story/biden-takes-14-point-lead-over-trump-in-cnn-poll-as-protests-shake-us-2020-06-08
David --"Sixty-four percent of respondents said they were sympathetic to the protests". However, she's justifying or even encouraging violence. I don't think a majority are in favor of violence. BTW it's ironic that while she complains that blacks don't own anything, rioters destroyed a number of black businesses.Yes, she's pouring her heart out. I do have sympathy for her. However, she reminds me of the right-wing nut-cases who fought the FBI at Ruby Ridge. They sincerely felt morally justified in their violence. Our civil society cannot be preserved if it's OK for everyone with a grievance to commit violence.Cheers
But why is she *so* angry that she's OK with violence?
PS: America's founding fathers were OK with violence to get what they wanted.
David - One reason I have sympathy for this woman is that she seems to have no agency, that is no ability to exert power. She bemoans the lack of black-owned businesses. Yet it doesn't occur to her that she or her children could start a black-owned business. She holds that incorrect opinion despite a plethora of laws providing all kinds of government help for starting a business. By comparison Clarence Thomas's grandfather started a successful business in racist Georgia 80 years ago. Through hard work and self-discipline his business succeeded. This is what Thomas Sowell means by "culture". Something in this woman's culture says she can't start a business. Meanwhile Chinese immigrants, who have a different culture, start many businesses. Her message of powerlessness is particularly harmful for black children. It would be so much better for John Oliver to feature someone like my late cousin Blanche, someone who could explain how she set out to become a doctor and succeeded. Or, he could feature a black person who successfully started a business. These are the right kind of role models. Holding victims up as heroes and role models is unhealthy IMHO.David - I think your comparison to the American Revolution is very far-fetched. The American revolutionaries had a valid problem and a realistic plan. This woman's idea that violence will lead to more black-owned businesses doesn't make sense. It's like the underpants-gnomes plan from South Park:Phase 1: Steal Underpants.Phase 2: ?Phase 3: ProfitCheers
David, she's not talking about black businesses. She's talking about owning homes., owning property.
via: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/business/wp/2019/02/28/feature/the-heartbreaking-decrease-in-black-homeownership/"In 2004, the pinnacle of homeownership in the United States, nearly half of all African American families owned a home, according to census data."The record figure, fueled by the housing boom of the early 2000s, was still one-third less than housing rates for whites."It fell to 43 percent in 2017, virtually erasing all of the gains made since the passage of the Fair Housing Act in 1968, landmark legislation outlawing housing discrimination."The decline comes even as whites, Asian Americans and Latinos slowly see gains in home-buying, according to a report by Harvard University’s Joint Center for Housing Studies."Nationally, 63.9 percent of Americans owned a home in 2017, the Harvard report shows. The white homeownership rate reached 72.9 percent, up from 72.2 percent a year earlier. The Hispanic homeownership rate reached 46.2 percent, up from 45.5 percent in 2016."Researchers at the Urban Institute found large disparities between the homeownership rates of black families and white families in all 100 of the cities with the largest black populations, pushing the housing gap between the two groups to its highest in more than 50 years."
This angry woman said, "We don't own anything." She didn't specify whether she was talking about residences or commercial property. I assumed she was talking commercial property, because she was justifying the destruction of commercial property. Also, within the inner city there are not that many privately owned dwellings.As far as blacks not owning their own homes, I don't think the relative lack of black success is a reason for blacks to have negative feelings about whites. My father came to this country at age 10, not speaking English and with no money. He worked hard and eventually earned enough money to buy a small house. I think people are proud of the millions of immigrants who did the same thing. By the same token, people are less proud of immigrants who don't succeed. Somehow, blacks have convinced a lot of people that their lack of success is somebody else's fault. To me, this is an example of the soft bigotry of low expectations. Oh, people who hold this view will claim that black lack of success is due to living in a systematically racist society. I don't buy that. Today's society is less racist than it has ever been. There are some disadvantages caused by race, but they are offset by the many legal advantages for blacks. Cheers
DiC: "living in a systematically racist society. I don't buy that."The previous thread shows that this belief stems from a total disregard for the evidence. There's almost no point in discussing this.I wasn't able to watch the video because it is blocked in my country. Trevor Noah has a thought provoking video on the matter: Trevor Noah On George Floyd, Amy Cooper & Racism In Societyand now here you have this woman who we've all seen the video now blatantly blatantly knew how to use the power of her whiteness to threaten the life of another man and his blackness what we saw with her was a really really powerful explicit example of an understanding of racism in a structural way when she looked at that man when she looked at Cooper and she said to him "I'm gonna call nine one one and I'm gonna tell them there's an african-american man threatening my life" she knew how powerful that was and that in itself is telling you know. It tells you how she perceives the police. It tells you how she perceives her relationship with the police as a white woman. It shows you how she perceives a black man's relationship with the police and the police's relationship with him.it was really bad it was powerful because so many people act like they don't know what what what black Americans are talking about when they said and yet Amy Cooper had a distinct understanding she's like oh I know I know that you're you're afraid of interacting with the police because there is a presumption of your guilt because of your blackness I know that as a white woman I can weaponize this tool against you and I know that by the time we've sifted through who was right or wrong there's a good chance that you will have lost in some way shape or form.
Again David, as Layzej pointed out before, you assume that your personal experience, here the experience of your father, is the experience of everyone. It's not. Anti-semiticism definitely existed/exists in the US, but it has been nothing like racism against blacks for four centuries, from slavery to Jim Crow to state violence against civil rights to employment and housing discrimination to police violence. Even the electoral college is racist. I doubt you feel worried for your life when a police pulls you over. But from what I read it seems most black people are, to the point where even professional blacks now feel the need to sit down and talk to their children, especially boys, about the dangers for them as blacks in even small encounters with the police. And I can't say I blame them; I'd be very worried too.
David and Layzej - I encourage you to read this article. It has many facts and figures. Th author writes better than I do.https://www.city-journal.org/repudiate-the-anti-police-narrativeCheers
David, I didn’t see in that article why George Floyd was murdered. Or Eric Garner. Or Tamar Rice. Or Trevon Martin. Did I miss it?
PS: you know of course the Manhattan Institute is well known to have a conservative bias to serve their finders. Look them up.
David - Yes, George Floyd was murdered. It may have been intentional. Apparently there was previous animus between Floyd and Chauvin. See e.g., https://www.foxnews.com/media/houston-police-chief-floyd-chauvin-history-nightclubEric Garner and Tamar Rice were arguably manslaughter. The evidence showed pretty clearly that Trayvon Martin attacked George Zimmerman and was bashing Z's head against the sidewalk. That's why Zimmerman was unanimously acquitted. Your misapprehension is due to inaccurate and biased media coverage. Even a few liberal sites like the Daily Howler pointed out the many media errors. But, set that aside. The key is the numbers.There are millions of interactions between police and black people. You point to 3 cases in the last 6 years where the police wrongly killed a black person. Media focus makes it seem like this is the norm, but it isn't. Even one police unjustified killing is too many. But, there is not an epidemic of such killings. OTOH there IS an epidemic of black murder victims who were killed by other blacks. Please read the linked article, and then let me know what you think. https://www.city-journal.org/repudiate-the-anti-police-narrative
Some issues with the article:1) It supposes that any examples of systemic racism short of murder should be ignored.2) That since the number of murders relative to the population is only a fraction of a percent, murder should also be ignored.3) worst of all, it prefers the testimony of "an elderly cancer amputee" and "another elderly lady" over the lived experience of hundreds of millions of victims of systemic racism.
Layzej - Thank you for reading the article. I agree with your point #1. The article is about murder. It doesn't address other aspects of racism.I disagree with your point #2. The article shows great concern about the murder of black people. It says:Blacks between the ages of ten and 43 die of homicide at thirteen times the rate of whites, according to the CDC. In New York City, blacks make up 73 percent of all shooting victims, though they are 23 percent of the city’s population. In Chicago in 2016, there were 4,300 shooting victims, almost all black. Among the two dozen victims under the age of 12 was a three-year-old shot on Father’s Day who is now paralyzed for life and a ten-year-old shot on Labor Day whose pancreas and spleen were ripped apart. In Minneapolis, last September, a two-year-old girl was shot in her backyard at 1 AM; another Minneapolis two-year-old, Le’Vonte King Jason Jones, was killed in broad daylight in 2016 by gang rivals of his mother’s boyfriend.Your point #3 shows how little either of us really knows. Are black inner city residents more afraid of the police or more afraid of local gangs? We can only rely on what particular news we see. As you rightly say, a few examples chosen by Heather Mac Donald don't prove anything. OTOH there is no actual testimony of hundreds of millions of people. The numbers do show that black criminals are a bigger threat than the police. However, police murder is different and more heinous than ordinary murders. People are right to be upset over the murder of George Floyd.Layzej -- Again, I thank you for reading the article.Cheers
"There’s overwhelming evidence that the criminal-justice system is racist. Here’s the proof,"Radley Balko, WaPo 6/10/20.https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/opinions/systemic-racism-police-evidence-criminal-justice-system/
David - I was unable to read the entire article, since I don't subscribe to WaPo. However, I was able to find excerpts. They're convincing. I believe that blacks are treated worse than whites or Asians by the police and by the criminal justice system, on average.Cheers
David -- BTW will you acknowledge that there is substantial, systematic pro-black favoritism in college and university admissions and in hiring for jobs? That is, when you adjust for background, blacks are substantially more likely to be admitted and hired than whites or Asians.cheers
there is no actual testimony of hundreds of millions* of peopleLook outside on the streets. Look at the signs. Listen to testimonials on the internet and in magazines. People are speaking up. Many are listening.*Hundreds of millions is the wrong order of magnitude. My mistake.
David - I finally remember the other liberal site that stood up for George Zimmerman's innocence. It was TalkLeft. http://www.talkleft.com/Cheers
Peter Sinclair often points out a link between climate denial and racism. I've been wondering why that might be. Adrian Bardon gives a convincing reason:"Conservatives are by definition what we call system justifiers. They are pro stautus quo. Conservatives are comfortable with the way things are in terms of the social and economic order and its hierarchies. They will seek out reasons to dismiss evidence that there is something wrong with that order."He goes on to talk about both systemic racism and climate change denial.
Layzez - those two terms are insults used only against Conservatives. They are so common that they barely have any real meaning. Cheers
I doubt there's any confusion around their meaning, but just in case:Climate Denial: rejection of the idea that changes in the Earth's climate or weather patterns are caused by human activity - Merriam-WebsterRacism: (again from Merriam-Webster1: a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race2 a: a doctrine or political program based on the assumption of racism and designed to execute its principles b: a political or social system founded on racism3: racial prejudice or discrimination
David in Cal wrote:"BTW will you acknowledge that there is substantial, systematic pro-black favoritism in college and university admissions and in hiring for jobs? That is, when you adjust for background, blacks are substantially more likely to be admitted and hired than whites or Asians."What do the data show?
David in Cal write:"OTOH there is no actual testimony of hundreds of millions of people."There was your testimony that Jews, including you, were discriminated against in hiring. Why should we believe you if you won't believe all those (>> 1) claiming systemic racism against blacks (not to mention the videos)?
David - I already said above "I believe that blacks are treated worse than whites or Asians by the police and by the criminal justice system, on average."Can you agree that blacks are treated better than whites or Asians in college and university admissions and in many workplace hiring situations, on average?Cheers
Layzej - the words are used more broadly than the definition. Every Republican President or candidate nowadays is called a racist. Look at google. McCain-racist gets 4.6 million hits.. Bush-racist has 28 million hits. Trump-racist gets 254 million hits. Pence-racist 2.6 million hits. "Climate denier" is used against people who disagree with the dominant belief. People can be called that epithet who...1. ...are not sure whether or not changes in the Earth's climate or weather patterns are caused by human activity 2. ...think man's impact on the climate is small or negligible3...think nothing should be done about global warming, because it's not a threat to mankind.4...think the UN climate models are not valid5...think Michael Mann is a phony.Cheers
David in Cal wrote:"Can you agree that blacks are treated better than whites or Asians in college and university admissions and in many workplace hiring situations, on average?"Again, WHAT DOES THE DATA SHOW?I'm not agreeing with anything until you show the data to back up your claim. Something you rarely do.
When I search Google for Bush +racistI get 80 results.When I do the same for Obama +racistI get 99 results.So what. Google search results are not a facsimile of reality or truth.
David in Cal said..."There are millions of interactions between police and black people. You point to 3 cases in the last 6 years where the police wrongly killed a black person."And you pointed to 1 case of anti-semitism in hiring -- yours -- and expected us to accept that Jews faced discrimination in hiring. And you didn't give any convincing details.
David in Cal wrote:""Climate denier" is used against people who disagree with the dominant belief. People can be called that epithet who...1. ...are not sure whether or not changes in the Earth's climate or weather patterns are caused by human activity2. ...think man's impact on the climate is small or negligible3...think nothing should be done about global warming, because it's not a threat to mankind.4...think the UN climate models are not valid5...think Michael Mann is a phony."Yes. "Climate denier" properly applies to all these people.
David, I just want to say again that I like you and respect you a lot for coming here and providing your opposition. I know that’s not easy to do, and I realize sometimes my adrenaline and testosterone gets the best of me, but right now I am hormonally neutral and just want to say no hard feelings and your ideas and comments are always welcome here. Thank you.
I’ll keep trying to do better.
David -- Here are some headlines calling Bush a racist or referring to others who called him a racist. Also, including a few about his mother. "Racist War Criminal George W. Bush’s Thoughts on George Floyd Are More Salt in the Wound" "Professor who called Barbara Bush an 'amazing racist' won't be disciplined" "George W. Bush Refuses to Sell Home to Blacks" (a false accusation) "When Maxine Called President Bush a Racist" "Donna Brazile: "She recalls the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina when people called former President Bush a racist." "Bush rejects accusations of racism over Katrina" "George W. Bush Says Accusing Him of Racism Is "Disgusting"" "How race shaped Bush’s response to Katrina" "George W Bush says lowest point was being called a racist" "BARBARA BUSH WAS THE ULTIMATE CASUAL RACIST “NICE WHITE LADY" "TRANSCRIPT of George Bush's racist remarks today"Cheers
David, why would I care about headlines calling Bush a racist? He's been out of office for over 10 years, and is completely out of the national conversation.
David - I thought you were disputing my contention that all Republican Presidents are called racists.
David, to the best of my knowledge, I’ve never said that all Republican presidents are racists.
Here are examples of republican presidents being called dumb or stupid. Does that mean those words have no meaning?Donald Trump's 9/11 attack on Jeb Bush so dumb it's geniusIs George Bush dumb?The 40 Dumbest Things George W. Bush Ever Said (With Stupid George Bush - HilariousWas President Bush Dumb? Don't Even Try To Out Stupid Donald TrumpThe Era of Stupid President Trump's moronic behavior101 Indisputable Facts Proving Donald Trump Is An IdiotEtc.People call people names. Also: The Pope is catholic.No one wants to be called racist or denier. Not even racists and deniers.All that is beside the point and a bit of a distraction.Adrian Bardon gives a convincing reason why racists and climate deniers are often conservatives:"Conservatives are by definition what we call system justifiers. They are pro status quo. Conservatives are comfortable with the way things are in terms of the social and economic order and its hierarchies. They will seek out reasons to dismiss evidence that there is something wrong with that order."
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